For Your Eyes Only: Part 3
Saturday, February 23rd, 2008
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In the movie Atonement, there’s a scene between a detective and a girl who claims to have witnessed a man’s crime. The detective asks her pointedly, “Did you see him with your own eyes?”
She replies deliberately, “Yes, I saw him with my own eyes.”
Whose eyes might she have used instead? I was so distracted by the weird phrasing that I missed much of the ensuing conversation. I must have heard this expression before, but it’s as if I heard it with new ears (my own, by the way).
Have English speakers really made use of this redundant expression? Do we still say it regularly, or was this more a quaint turn of phrase from the British World War II period (the setting for the film)?
It’s Not Just English Speakers …
It makes sense that the detective emphasized the importance of seeing the crime, but information can obviously filter into our minds in many other ways. Case in point: Some Japanese words about fact-finding or truth-telling combine the kanji for “fact” or “truth” (実, as we’ve seen over past weeks) with characters for body parts. Here’s an example:
実聞 (jitsubun: to hear with one’s own ears) reality + to hear
Breen defines this rare compound as “to hear with one’s own ears.” This sort of oddity really must be a part of our language!
Hearing with Someone Else’s Ears …
Going with the pattern, what would you expect 口実 to mean? Saying something with your own mouth? Well, that’s kind of true and kind of not:
口実 (kōjitsu: excuse, pretext) mouth + contents, substance
When you make an excuse, you appear to be the one speaking. But you’re not speaking authentically (that is, truthfully, sincerely, and from a place deep inside yourself), so it’s as if it isn’t really you who’s talking. You’re using a type of ventriloquism, only you’re the puppet … and the puppetmaster! (How did this get so confusing?!)
If we inject a kanji into the middle of that compound, everything changes:
口忠実 (kuchimame: talkative) mouth + loyalty + faithfulness
There’s quite a lot going on here. First, how do mouth + loyalty + faithfulness add up to mean “talkative”?! Second, look how different the yomi of kuchimame is from kōjitsu, just above. The on-yomi KŌ turned into the kun-yomi kuchi. Well, OK. That happens. But 実 can’t have the yomi of me. Likewise, the middle kanji 忠 (CHŪ, tada, tadashi) can’t have the yomi of ma, as one might think from this word. So kuchimame appears to be an instance of ateji.
I believe it’s time for a Verbal Logic Quiz. Be sure to solve it with your own mind!
Posted by Eve Kushner in Kanji Curiosity |
February 27th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Another fascinating entry again Eve. With the ‘’my own eye’s'’ phrase. I tend to hear that phrase a bit when some says, ‘’I wouldn’t have believed it unless I saw it with my own two eyes'’. Maybe it’s an Aussie thing as we do like to be a bit redundant and superfluous (lol).
The word I will take out of this will be 忠実忠実しい. I would often use 働き者, but 忠実忠実しい might be an elaborate expression.
I am eagerly awaiting the next entry so I can improve my Japanese even more - and that is not a 口実 to get out of mowing the backyard and doing housework.
February 27th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Glenn, another nice comment! I didn’t realize you were Aussie. Now I’ll have to read your comments with a different accent in mind!
When you’re finished mowing your yard, there’s one in California that could use a bit of attention, too. Come on, be a pal (or do they say “mate” down under?). It’s not really that far out of your way, is it? After all, are you a 働き者 or not?! Seems like a very good word to me–probably far more common than 忠実忠実しい. My main worry with that word is that it might sound for a moment as if one is talking about a bunch of beans (豆, mame)!
March 1st, 2008 at 12:25 am
Hi, wow, first of all, I thought this blog would be the same audio blog of the lessons.
Sorry, that I didn’t read your nice and interesting postings.
I think 口忠実 and 足忠実 shall be broke down as ‘word + 忠実’ form.
As 忠実 means loyalty these words can be deciphered as ‘be loyal to the mouth’ and ‘be loyal to the foot’.
Actually as Korean, I think these expressions are very interesting, because we also use the word ‘忠実 hada(which means ‘だ’ in japanese)’ as the same meaning, ‘be loyal’. We can say ‘he’s loyal to his mouth.’ or anything else than ‘mouth’, that you can understand. But we don’t have the form like 口忠実 or 足忠実. I wonder may Chinese have?
Thank you again for the nice post, and keep up the fire!
March 1st, 2008 at 4:33 am
Hi, Jong.
Thanks for the nice comment. Interesting to hear a Korean point of view on kanji matters!
You know, I think you make a great point that the 口 in 口忠実 means “words.” Halpern offers lots of examples of compounds in which the 口 means “speech, talk, words” AND has the yomi of kuchi.
Oh, but wait, your main point is that I should take 忠実 as a whole unit meaning “loyal” or “faithful,” rather than presenting them individually as “loyalty” + “faithfulness,” right? Hmm, seems to have the same end result. But maybe you’re right that it simplifies one’s thinking.
Funny to see how far apart the Japanese and Korean pronunciations of 忠実 are: “chūjitsu” vs. “hada.” As you probably know, “hada” in Japanese (肌) means “skin,” though I’m surprised to see that it also has these meanings:
(2) grain (e.g. of wood); texture
(3) disposition; temperament; character; type
Sorry, getting off track….
Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking comment!
March 2nd, 2008 at 12:52 am
Thanks for the nice reply!
Actually, I made you confused. What I meant for ‘hada’ was for the ‘だ’ part (the ending term). So: 忠実だ = 忠実하다(hada)
By the way, we don’t much use the 漢字 these days. So we write “忠実하다” as “충실하다” and pronounce as “chung-sil-ha-da” (So it is “chūjitsu” vs “chung-sil”, which are similar each other)
What I wanted point out was the interesting composition of “something+忠実”. “口忠実” and “足忠実” are not exist in Korean but still can easily be understood. (We have an expression, “being 忠実 to something̶
Sorry for the confuse-provoking comment and may this comment hopefully straight the previous one!
March 2nd, 2008 at 3:23 am
Oh! Thanks for clearing that up! So 하다 is the Korean version of です、more or less?
Just out of curiosity, how do you say skin in Korean? I want it to be something like hada hada!
And another question, though I’m worried this one might be offensive, which is NOT at all my intention. A few days ago, I was reviewing the text of my forthcoming kanji book with the publisher. I had said that 朝鮮 (Chōsen) was a possible name for “Korea” in Japanese. My Japanese teacher had taught me that. My publisher said, “Koreans these days are really offended by that term, which reminds them of colonial days.” But he thought Kita-Chōsen is still an OK term for North Korea.
Can you explain any of this to me? I have no idea of the history of these terms or the nuances. Thanks!
March 6th, 2008 at 12:24 am
Sorry that 肌 is 피부(pi-bu) in Korean. So “肌だ。” is “피부다.(Pi-bu-da.)” in Korean. (In this case, だ is not “hada.” but “da.” A little bit confusing, isn’t it?)
I know that in Japan, they still call Korea as ‘朝鮮’. I don’t know why, though?
In Korean, Korea is ‘한국 (han-guk)’ and in 漢字，it is 韓国.
I admit that there may be some offended feeling in the term, because 朝鮮 or 朝鮮人 reminds us the colonial period as you said. Specially, it is due to such an image like “a mean 日本人の警官 yelling “こんな朝鮮人のやつ！” and torturing a Korean patriot”. (This is not an exaggeration.)
I think we’ve been educated being very against to the Japan (specially under the presidents based on the military: ~1992) when learning about the colonial period as much as Japan was cruel to Korea at that time. It’s very two-sided as we have increasing, active cultural exchange, isn’t it?
I think it should be changed these days, though.
My western friends ask me why Koreans cannot get out of “being victimized” and get along with Japan. I always answer it’s because Japan never apologize their past wrong-doing in public, unlike Germany in addition. But 実は、ね、I don’t really know why. I also, recently started to think it’s time to get over and make a better and sincere relationship with Japan.
I also have a interesting historical theory about the Korea-Japan relationship, but it’s not a thing to post here, I think. Anyway, I might go too further. Voilà, I recommend to call it 韓国（かんこく）. It is also because it is the actual, official name. (More precisely, 大韓民国). And for N.Korea, 朝鮮人民共和国 shortly 朝鮮 is their official name. The funny thing is that they call 韓国 as 南朝鮮人民共和国. Very ideological…
Hopefully, this can be an answer to your question!
March 6th, 2008 at 4:10 am
Hi, Jong. Thanks for the very thorough, thoughtful answer. I feel a little bad, making you work so hard (in English and even some French!!!) to explain all that!
I’m also disappointed to hear that there’s no hada hada for “skin”! Oh, well!
You made lots of intriguing, thought-provoking comments. Hard for me to know just how to address them, as I feel I know so little about the subject.
I can certainly imagine how it’s hard to let go of a national feeling of victimization, because I think that feeling gives people a sense of power (e.g., moral righteousness). And maybe that sense of power is the only way to compensate for the powerlessness people feel when they’re mistreated. Letting go of the anger feels like saying, “It’s OK for you to mistreat me/us in that way.” And I think it also would feel similar to laying down a weapon that instinctively one feels that one needs. These comments may be way off-base when it comes to the Korea-Japan situation. I’m just talking about it from a personal-psychological point of view, since most of us have felt victimized by other people at some point.
I’m sure the lack of an apology keeps all of the feelings alive, as well.
Anyway, it’s interesting that you’re obviously so interested in Japanese. I have 2 Japanese language partners who live in Korea and who are fluent in Korean. They know lots of Koreans who speak Japanese. This must be part of the “increasing, active cultural exchange” you mentioned, right? If I understand the situation right (and I probably don’t!), it seems that lots of young people in both countries are drawn to each other’s cultures and are learning each other’s languages, even while the old feelings persist??? Or maybe some factions have hard feelings, whereas other people are willing to let them go?
I still don’t understand why North Koreans don’t mind the term (北)朝鮮.
I’m also curious/confused about the etymology of 朝鮮. It breaks down as morning + fresh. That sounds rather nice, but I think that’s not what’s really going on.
Halpern says that 朝 means “dynasty.” OK…. But the next character is much more peculiar. How did fish （魚）+ sheep (羊) come to be associated with Korea?! Henshall says that 羊 inside this character lends the connotation of “fine.” So … a fine fish! Halpern says 鮮 simply means “Korea.” He also says the following:
朝鮮 (chōsen): (North) Korea [Why would he say North here???? Could he be wrong? I’ve revered Halpern as a god. I refuse to think he could be wrong!]
南鮮 (nansen): South Korea
北鮮 (hokusen): North Korea
All new twists on the naming issue. And all hopelessly out of date, I imagine!
Meanwhile, wow: what a mouthful 南朝鮮人民共和国 is!!!!
Please don’t feel obligated to address any of this, unless you really want to!
And I’d be interested in hearing your historical theory on the Korea-Japan relationship in private, if you want to email me: evekushner@yahoo.com.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Thank you for the thoughtful reply! It’s always big pleasure to listen to other’s thinking.
I actually have no idea about the exact etymology of 朝鮮. There is many hypothesis and it seems at least clear that 朝鮮 was a name of territory or river at that time, and the name should be succeeded through different groups in history. And there is a theory that the name was originated in “Jusin” which means “to receive from God”. It sounds persuading because 中国, 日本 means also some kind of “the best” or “the nobility”.
For Mr. Halpern, I think he put N. Korea for 朝鮮 because it is officially what they call themselves. In the same time, I think you might want to know that 朝鮮 was the name of a kingdom which lasted 500 hundred years over with its capital at Seoul.
Meanwhile, 南鮮 or 北鮮 are words that I never heard of. They may be used only in Japan as Japanese people still, sometimes call 韓国 as 朝鮮.
It seems like Mr. Halpern’s book has really a lot of contents inside! I’ll look it up on the internet after moving to Osaka next month.
For my theory, I excuse that I didn’t yet make it solid enough yet to explain to other person.
じゃ、またね！
March 7th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
I wrote a comment about two weeks ago but mistakenly erased it (closed it without saving). Here it is. It is about 忠実忠実しい. It is hard to come out with a good counterpart in English vocabulary that expresses its full nuance. Of course “hard working” is right as the following sample in an Internet dictionary shows: 忠実忠実しく働く男 = an industrious (hard working) man.
After looking for quite a few English words, I think “assiduous” may be as good a translation. My point is that if you imagine an energetic workaholic type of person, you aren’t very close. Rather, 忠実忠実しい人 is a kind of person who never neglects to write back upon receiving a letter(筆忠実), unlike most of us who keep postponing and eventually forget about it and also a kind of person who never neglects to pay a visit to a friend when he is supposed to (足忠実).
It is also helpful to know that, while 筆忠実 and 足忠実 are positive, 口忠実 is negative. Eve has already said this above, but remember not to call an eloquent person 口忠実!
March 8th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Thanks, Jong, for all the context when it comes to 朝鮮! I certainly understand about theories that make SO much sense in one’s brain but that aren’t quite ready to come out into the world!
And … you’re moving to Japan! Wow. Well, somehow I feel that you and Glenn (author of comment #1) should meet up when you move there at the same time! But more to the point, it’s really interesting that you’re moving there while ruminating so much about Korean-Japanese relations! Maybe you’ve lived in Japan before, but if not, I’d be very curious to hear about what it’s like for you to live there as a Korean! Good luck with the move!
And Hiroshi-san, speaking of redundancy (re. the blog post above and your comment on another post), I’m surprised to see 忠実忠実しい and 働く teaming up in the same phrase! Not too redundant??? Guess not!
Anyway, thanks for the info. and especially for drawing a useful distinction between conscientiousness and workaholism. My language exchange partner (the one in Korea!) just taught me 筆忠実 (fudemame), so it’s cool to see it in your comment! I love getting and sending mail, so I’m already quite fond of this term!
March 9th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Very clear distinction and explanation Hiroshi san!
As I am not a quite 忠実忠実しい person, this word makes me look back and gives me self-motivation.
And Eve san, thanks for asking me my thoughts about my moving.
I actually worried about my previous comments for this post as they contain some possibly evocative phrases. But what I explained up there were all I physically felt in Korea by myself and I thought it could be worth to comment here rather than sending you an email. (But I’m still not sure which would been made better move.)
So unlikely the social (, stereo type) atmosphere, I want to show my personal feeling and thoughts about Japan, here. I would excuse myself that this should be the last public comment of this conversation. Of course, we can always personally email each other when there is more things to discuss.
————————————–
I wanted to learn Japanese long time ago. My first meet to the Japanese culture was with Nintendo role playing games and I loved them! Look, how amazingly powerful the culture is.
Even though the history classes of my generation were filled with quite emphasized patriotism, but I think I am grown up as a person with radical thinking (with le sang froid: I don’t know exact matched word in English) and open mind. Moreover, I think that a person who wants to learn a foreign language likely loves the country. “Interest 関心” is the first step to love! So I am not any against Japanese people for the past that we, contemporary human, are not deserved. I’m very excited to move to Japan overall.
If there is something I want to achieve personally in Japan, it is maybe to better understand Japanese people and culture. There is not widely accepted Japanese sided point of view for the many sensitive matters in Korea until now. (It is partly due to the social atmosphere, of course.) I will be grateful if I can help to make this situation better.
This is my feelings and thoughts for now. I think I can only tell this much for instance!
March 11th, 2008 at 10:05 am
はい、分かりました！Thanks, Jong!